The Importance of Being Seen & Heard w/ Dr. Lisa Lowery and Kali Jackson-Dieleman

Why are so many young people feeling alone in a connected world? 

Hillary sits down with Dr. Lisa Lowery and Kali Jackson-Dieleman to explore the rising loneliness among Gen Z. They discuss the impact of social media, the importance of validation over sympathy, and how small, consistent acts of empathy can make a big difference in helping people feel truly seen and heard. 

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Transcript

Hillary: 0:00

Hey, hey, it's Hilary. Join me for a helpful and hopeful chat about mental health in our community. So grab a cup of coffee or tea. This is Wedgwood's Coffee Break conversation. I am so excited for today's chat, so let's just jump right in. Thanks for joining me. Dr Lisa Lowery and Kaylee Jackson dealman, I'd love for you both to introduce yourselves a

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 0:22

bit. Hi. My name is Dr Lisa Lowry, and I am the Section Chief of adolescent and young adult medicine at Helen DeVos Children's Hospital, coral health West.

Kali Jackson: 0:32

My name is Kaylee Jackson dealman. I'm a residential Therapist here at Wedgwood Christian Services. I've been here for about five years, working with at risk youth in our cook class program who have struggled with sexual abuse and human trafficking. Thank you

Hillary: 0:45

both so much for being here. Okay, so I read recently that approximately half of the US population reports feeling lonely, and for Gen Z, 73% feel constantly or sometimes feeling alone. That's a lot of people who feel like no one sees, hears or understands them. So how is this trend playing out in your work and with the kids and families that you see?

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 1:08

Well, we see it often. I mean, we saw it a lot before we had the COVID pandemic, and even more so now, I think one of the things that we see is difficulty of people really finding a connection, or wondering what that connection feels and seems like, what what is trying to even kind of find that purpose. And I think we find see it in adults as well, but really trying to, trying to find themselves, trying to find that level of, and I'll use the word intimacy, but not in necessarily relationship, one on one. Intimacy. Relationship is like a, like a romantic level. But how do I find that connectedness?

Kali Jackson: 2:00

Yeah, I agree. I'd say a lot with my clients, I see them looking for some sort of sense of purpose and community, and when they don't see it in person, they look online. And so we're seeing a lot of clients look for relationships in social media platforms or people that they've never met in person, just because there's been a lack of face to face connection or validation that they've experienced in the past, so now they're looking for it elsewhere.

Hillary: 2:22

Yeah. Oh, that's so scary to like look for it online with someone you've never met. So a musician I really like has a concept and a lyric that he uses a lot. It's, don't be lonely by yourself, which I appreciate, because feeling lonely is like a normal part of the human experience in our range of emotions, but it's not inherently bad, unless it's a, you know, in isolation or really persistent, right? So what are some of the common signs that a child or a teen is feeling unseen or unheard?

Kali Jackson: 3:00

Absolutely, I'd say in the clients that I deal with, I see a lot of like, lack of self confidence and self purpose. They haven't had someone tell them that they're doing good before. So they're constantly questioning, looking for validation without actually asking for it. So sometimes you see attention seeking behaviors. They are wanting someone to notice them, but they're not. So they keep doing these behaviors louder and louder until someone can say, Hey, I see you, I hear you, and validate what they're going through. So

Hillary: 3:27

at that point, it's almost like any attention, even if it's bad. Attention is better than nothing. And

Kali Jackson: 3:33

even go back to what you said about the Lyric, is if we aren't validating our own emotions, we aren't modeling to validate theirs. And a lot of times they're looking for kids, look for what we're doing, right? They that's where our first we're the ones that they're looking forward to learn from. And when they're looking at us, if we aren't validating our emotions or allowing ourselves to feel all the feels, they're not going to do that either. And so I think it first starts there is looking inward and allowing ourselves to model what we want to teach. Yeah,

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 4:01

I agree. So you can have that outward expression where they're acting out. You can have that inward where they're actually turning inward. And so they become more isolative. So they go from going from these outgoing people to they're just, you know, they're just looking, they're inward. They're not engaging in any sort of activity. You know, they're just in their bedroom all the time. They've given up doing things or where even the parents says, Well, they didn't really used to come out the room. Now they're not doing anything. They're not even, some parents even say they're not even engaging in social media. We even see people, of course, become more depressed. We see decrease in grades and things like that. And so we kind of see those things. We can even see them withdraw from school. And so then there's this thing where I kind of see where school avoidance. And then this school. Will slide. And then there's because sometimes becomes this vicious cycle of social anxiety. Well, then the child doesn't want to go to school, then the parent keeps them home, and then they say, Well, Dr Larry, can you keep them from home? And then we're wrestling with the kid not wanting to go to school. And so that just sometimes continues to perpetuate loneliness, and so those are some of the things you have to tackle. And no one really wants to say that I don't feel heard and validated and seen. I mean, he wants to ask for attention, no, right? And that's the last thing you know. That's the one last thing that a kid wants to be put on spotlight in a doctor's office or anywhere, right, right? And so those are some of the things we have to tackle. And I don't think how often, even when we were thinking about this podcast and this discussion, who wants to say, Hey, are you feeling lonely? Yeah. I mean, who would answer that truthful and say, Oh yes, I'm feeling lonely.

Unknown: 6:00

Yeah? Very vulnerable, very

Hillary: 6:02

vulnerable. But there's such power in it. Though, our team had a discussion about feeling a little disconnected and lonely at church, and when one person finally admitted it, a few of us were like, Yeah, me too, yeah, okay, I get that. And then we did something about it. And so there's a lot of power in it. But you're right, the initial like, I'm feeling lonely is like a very hard thing to say, especially for kids. I feel like kids admitting anything is kind of a tricky situation to begin with. I mean,

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 6:33

we all talk about it, we all laugh and go, Okay, FOMO, the fear of missing out. And, you know, I feel uninvited, but there is something innately kind of triggering when you know you see that event posted and you weren't admitted, you weren't invited, or you weren't included. And I was actually talking to an adult just a few days ago, and we were talking about, even in adulthood, how hard it is to get those relationships, right? But when we were talking about, and as I'm thinking about this, we were there was an aspect of loneliness. I mean, I was thinking about this since in my own life, when are there times you really felt lonely, and you think about it and you're like, Well, I have friends, I'm involved in, you know, a million different things, but then, or you're even married or in a relationship, but why are you feeling lonely? What? What is that? What is that gnawing at you that's causing you to be lonely? And think about this I was, I was seeing a patient a few weeks ago, and and I know I might say, say something controversial. There was a patient who was, you know, being homeschooled. And now, as they become older, how do you develop that connectedness? And so their social structure has always been home and family, home and family, well, part of that home is now leaving. And so how do I develop friends outside my home, right? And so really, part of that conversation was okay, we need for you to develop some extracurriculars, but outside of you know, and then having an honest conversation about yes you are. Yes, you do have some social anxiety, but yes and you are. And I hate using the whole introvert extrovert discussion, right? And there's a great book I recommend, but it's okay, you know, sometimes we get introverts and extroverts. You know, you can be an introvert, and some of us are introverts, even sitting on this podcast right now, we were talking about that even before this. And we have to will that power and so, but, you know, okay, but we have to nudge you into things. You know, you know you're gonna have to get out of your, your safe comfort zone. But really talking about, and as I was thinking about, you're feeling loneliness, right? I

Kali Jackson: 9:03

really like that. You brought that up because I feel like people forget. We are all wired with the innate desire for connection, whether you're introvert, extrovert, that's just how you charge up. But we all want to be loved or seen or connected everyone. That's why you try to find community in church or school teams or just those extracurriculars. It's because we all desire to be connected. So when you're feeling lonely, it doesn't mean that you don't have someone next to you. You just may have a lack of connection somewhere, and you need to dig deep to rebuild that.

Hillary: 9:33

Yeah, the way you were talking about loneliness. And you know, we might have relationships, but I think it comes down to not not having someone who sees you for who you are and understands who you are when you are being your authentic self. So having that connection with other people who get you is so important. So if people are feeling unseen and unheard and misunderstood and alone, what on the flip side? What does it mean? To feel seen, heard and validated.

Kali Jackson: 10:03

I'd say in the work that I've seen, it's just being able to be more than just a listener. The World's Greatest listeners do more than listening. They're showing up, they are asking additional questions. They're asking for clarification, and then once they receive all that, all those details, they're validating. And validation doesn't mean yeah, I've been there. It just means, dang, that could be hard, and oh my gosh, is there anything I can do to help? I think sometimes people get stuck in like sympathy versus empathy and knowing where to land. And I think when you think about validation, you just have to think about empathy. It's showing someone that you truly care and you're trying to be genuine and offer validation and assistance versus sympathy, kind of looking down upon them, because sometimes validation can feel like pity, right? It can feel at a time when you're feeling really vulnerable and you don't want to show up and say, I'm lonely. Sometimes you're fearful for the response you're going to get. But if you get an empathetic response, something that says, gosh, that could be hard, versus a sympathetic response that's like, gosh, that's hard for you, it really lands down. Yeah,

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 11:03

I love that. The World's Greatest listener. I think it's really like you say, allowing people to share and be vulnerable. And it's true, one of the things when I'm seeing my patients is saying, you know, what do you like to do when you're not hanging out at the doctor's office? Because really, you're there. You might be there for, you know that physical you might be there for whatever, that toe ache or whatever. But what do you like to do? Please share with me a little something about yourself. And you will be amazed that my they light up right, and they share. And again, to me, that might be a way of me being a listener, being empathetic, learning something about themselves. But then it's also for me, I get joy for seeing them light up, because so many times we always say, Oh, they're just teenagers, and I know I'm preaching to the choir. They don't know what they want, but they do know what they want, and they want to be validated and heard and and share a little sense about themselves. So I think that's one of the ways we can, you know, hear them and validate their experience. We all have a valued experience, and whether it's you know a few, you know several, 50 or 60 decades of experience, or if it's just a decade and a half of experience, we all have a valued experience. And I think that's what we need to remind ourselves. My grandmother would always say, she would say, someone someone could always teach you something, and I'm always constantly reminded of that, and some on our patients, our colleagues, our young people that we engage with can teach us something. And so I think that's what we have to remember and remind ourselves.

Hillary: 12:56

So you've touched on this a little bit, but you could, you guys, talk about how you've seen the impact of kid on kids mental health and their sense of self when they feel known and supported and understood.

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 13:09

I've seen them like for me, I think they buy into and engage in their own wellness and sense of self. And so you see them show up for engage in their therapy, but also when you say, Okay, this is why, for example, I want to treat your depression. This is why I think you're feeling like this. And then it's really, we can call it per patient centered care, you know, we have those fancy Doctor terms that we should use, but when you really say, this is, I hear you. I want to understand you. I want to partner with you along this journey, then they go, okay, they get me, you know? And I think that's what's important. And sometimes, you know, giving them a little bit of autonomy. Now sometimes I have to say, you know, what the adults in the room might have to make this decision for you. I might have to nudge you in a particular way, however I want to hear you. And sometimes I have to say, you know, I'm hearing you and I understand, but can we kind of come to a little bit of a compromise? And even just saying that I hear you and I understand, and I try to use the B, U, T word, but I hear you and I think you, they can. You can kind of give them a little buy in and a little and some autonomy. Yeah,

Hillary: 14:39

I love that. I

Kali Jackson: 14:40

agree with everything. Dr Lowry just said, in addition, I would just add that I've noticed that clients tend to be more open in conversation as soon as they notice that you're not judging and you're not there to provide a quick fix. Yeah, I think we have kind of been bred in a world where we don't like feeling pain. We don't like feeling vulnerable or uncomfortable. We've talked about that, yeah, and so. So people look for giving someone a quick fix anytime they see that pain or discomfort, but in therapy, that's time to sit in it and to recognize why are you feeling that way, and allow them to validate their own emotions as well as you validate theirs. And so I realized when individuals had that space to be able to just talk it out and realize what I'm feeling is okay, and I don't need to fix it right away. And I need to feel these things in order to heal. You got to feel it to heal it. I just feel like it really it breeds a better treatment environment as well as it sets them up, sets them up for when they're in the community, to look for people who they can talk to. Further, it's not just the therapist that's safe for them. Now, they're looking for anyone who will listen and provide me genuine feedback or care. Those are safe people I

Hillary: 15:41

can talk to as well. Yeah, I feel like with the girls that you work with, Kaylee, that's so extra important, because they've kind of come from a space where no one was hearing them, no one was seeing them, and it kind of got them into a bad place. And so to have it on kind of the flip side sets them up for establishing healthy relationships moving forward and being healthy people.

Kali Jackson: 16:02

I have so many clients who have came here and haven't fully told their story yet, right? But as soon as they get here and they have someone willing to genuinely bear witness to their story, provide validation. Now they're they're disclosing several assaults. Now we're at a place where we are able to seek justice for several things that have maybe gone unheard because they never felt safe or they never felt like someone really believed them. So it is. It's heartwarming to see what little, what I think is so little, is validating, right? Is life changing to them, for them to be able to now speak up, share their story and get justice at times amazing. That's

Hillary: 16:36

so amazing. And you guys have both talked about validation quite a bit, and so I want to just clarify something that validation doesn't necessarily mean, like condoning or agreeing or saying that it's right. Can you talk about that a little

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 16:50

bit? Yeah, I thank you for saying that, because that is one of the things I always tell my patients and families when I'm meeting with you, I'm saying you can be open and honest with me, and I'm going to be open and honest with you, and we may not agree on everything, and I want you to be open and honest with me, and it doesn't mean I'm going to condone it, but I want you to be open and honest with me, and we're going to come to some kind of understanding. But as long as you're open and honest with me, I'm going to be open and honest with you, and my patients will even say, Okay, Dr Lyon, I don't want you coming in, you know, saying this or that, all right then, but it's that mutual understanding. And I think sometimes what patients and clients want is that level of consistency. And what you said that non judgmental consistency. I can let you be vulnerable. I can let you be honest. I'm not going to judge you, and this is the thing I'm going to say. Or they, they, you can have that loving judgment where, like, that safe judgment, where, you know, I'm going to hold you accountable. Be like, Yep, I messed up, but you're my safe zone. Yeah, you know, I always say I'm better. We're better than Vegas, you know what stage, but I'm gonna be that safe zone for you. Okay, yep, you messed up, but like, let's work through this. And I've and now I've been doing this long enough now I'm seeing some of my former patients and their teenagers. I don't know how that happened after 20 years, but that's it's that consistency. And so I think when you open that level of communication up, you're saying, I'm not condoning that. However, let's, let's come to a place where we can help and guide you through this and work through this. It's important

Kali Jackson: 18:34

to remember that in that moment, it's, it's true to them, right? Yeah. So when we're validating I'm not validating it for me and validating it for you. So if that's true to you, that's your truth, and I'm just here to sit in it with you. And yeah, there's times where maybe we're gonna guide you in a different direction, because I want you to learn better. But in the moment, that is your truth and validation, as simple as that as Gosh, that's hard. I see you. Whatever they're expressing in that moment is true. And how can I help you get through it? Or if you don't want to get through it right now, how can I help you sit in it? Yeah, in it? Yeah? And that's all it has

Hillary: 19:04

to be, yeah. When you're as you're talking about it, I was thinking that part of being connected and feeling seen and heard is like the all of it, you know, you can't it's not just the good things. It's the things that you're struggling with that are hard, the things that you're like, Gosh, I really don't want to tell Dr Lowery about that, but I have to. And so you have to be able to work through all of those things and be a space where they can share the good and the bad, because that's what makes you a whole person. The stats I mentioned at the beginning of our little coffee break, it was half of Americans, so it was the adults too are feeling lonely. So how do we model being connected and having strong relationships and feelings seen and heard when we're also striving for that ourselves?

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 19:50

I really think, like you said, it's modeling, and I think for parents, for the adults and the lives, it's that. Consistency, but role modeling what healthy looks like. And so having those, I mean, I'm not telling parents to open up and tell your kids what you necessarily like, your deepest, darkest secrets. This is what I'm struggling with, but really modeling like, you know what? I'm working on myself, and I'm seeking out therapy, having those open spaces and relationships and conversations. And I think one of the things I try to tell parents and adults is it's that consistency, and it's not that it does not have to be that one and done conversation. It should not be that one and done conversation. You know, it's you can have those short snippet car ride conversations opening up. This is an open time for us to, you know, I'm here to have that conversation with you, but that's where I really try to save for a patient, you know, and parents. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't it's not hard. It's not this one time lecture, yeah. Should not never be election.

Hillary: 21:01

Yeah, yeah.

Kali Jackson: 21:04

I think modeling is the biggest thing. And when you think about modeling, it has to be ongoing, like you said, as well as you have to think about the emotional intelligence that needs to be in the room. When we teach kids emotions, we often think about happy, sad and like our our basic senses of emotions. But as we get older and emotions expand, what about lonely, bored, fatigue, stress, if we can teach individuals that those emotions happen in their normal by modeling that we're also teaching them that it's okay to to find a way to get through it right, and to show them what helps us, what helps me as an adult, may not what, what may not help my daughter one day, right, but I can show her that I tried that, and it was something that I thought was important to do, rather than to just let it be. There's an importance in trying to find some coping skills in life.

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 21:52

Yeah, and your children, and the people, the young people in our lives, are really watching us. How are we dealing with this? How are we? How are you dealing with the stress of life? How are you? How are you interacting with other people? I mean, you know, when you hear a child or a teenager say, Tell an adult, you know what? My parent is gonna come up to school and talk bad to you, that's because they've seen that model behavior, so let's not model that bad behavior, you know. How do we engage with other people? So, how are you modeling, how are you dealing with stress, you know what? And if you did something and acted out and said, You know what, I probably I handled that situation wrong. You know, I handle that because I was fatigued, I was stressed. How are we dealing with that? And so again, modeling that behavior is really important.

Hillary: 22:43

So are there some simple, everyday ways that caregivers, educators, mentors, can help kids feel valued and seen?

Kali Jackson: 22:52

I'd say first step, stop listening to respond and listen to understand. Ask those clarifying questions. See where you can help and look from an empathetic response, instead of sympathetic, see how you can put yourself in that person's shoes when, if ever possible, and see what assistance you could provide. And if you can't provide anything, just telling them that it's okay to be where they're at is enough.

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 23:15

I love that. I love that. Just listening and time. I think one of the things when you sit and talk to our young people, it really is just time, and it doesn't have to be a lot of time. It can be 510, minutes, and putting down the phones and just looking and listening and and being present. And I think that's what our young people, everybody is craving, and just that being present. And when you think of that, that's where loneliness stems from if you're not present, if I don't feel heard, if I don't feel validated. So that's something simple. How can you show up in someone's life, if it's just if you have a young person in within your sphere? And what I mean that could be as simple as if you at church and have a young person, Hey, how's it going? How was your week? Have a great week today. Have a great week this week. You know, how's it going? What are you doing? Whatever you can do. And anybody can do that, no matter how you how old you are, we have gotten away from that in our community, I remember, and I'm still blessed to be around people in my life, the people the matriarchs and the patriarchs. And that would come, hey, how you doing? How's school? And they would touch on you. And then as we got older, they would give you a little crumpled up money. Maybe you are able to give them a little crumpled up money. I don't know where you are back in day. Give you a little crumpled up $10 and squeeze and put in your hand. If you are at that capacity, you can give them a little crumpled up money. Yeah, no, they might not know what to do it because, you know, everybody has cash. But if you can do that, show up where you can, yeah, but be a listening. And you know, if you're in your professional space, just stop, take that two to three minutes and listen. I think that those are some of the things that you can those easy tips that you can do.

Hillary: 25:27

What's funny about the advice that you both gave is it's almost not even like something to do. You just show up and be like. The whole point is, you don't have to do anything. You just

Kali Jackson: 25:37

be a person. Yeah, yeah. Be a kind person. Show that you care. Not only care about their emotions, but care about what's going on in their general Yeah, just be nice. Like, think

Hillary: 25:46

about how great it feels when you've, like, run into someone and they remember the thing that you told them the last time you saw them. You always feel like, oh, wow, I can't believe they remember that. Like, imagine how a kid would feel if you remember that they're into Legos and ask them what they built this week. Like,

Kali Jackson: 26:01

just think about how excited you are when you hold the door open for someone and they say, thank you. You're like, you know, like, I did good. But if they don't say anything, you're like, Oh no, you know, yeah, what just happened? There something as simple as that interaction is validating, and it made a difference in how someone perceived it, right? Small actions really build into these big things. So

Hillary: 26:21

good. Is there anything else you want our brew crew to know?

Dr. Lisa Lowery: 26:26

You know what I always when I give talks, always say, Just begin with your sphere. And I think for whoever's listening your podcast, all of these things can be overwhelming, but just it's like you said the little things. And so the next time you see a young person, just be like, Hey, how you doing? Hope you have a great day. And I'll be honest, my husband, who happens to be in education, he does a really good job of that. And so I will say he models that behavior for me outside of my sphere of my I do, I think I do a really good job of my work spirit. But when we're outside of that work, he does a really good job of that, and so he models that behavior for me. And so just do what you can do and and so you know whether where you are just just look into a kid's eyes and say, Hey, how you doing? Have a great week.

Kali Jackson: 27:20

It's awesome. Yeah, I would just say, continue to try every day see how many differences you can make. Make one person smile, and that'll continue to build contagiousness, right, as they continue to try to make other people smile. Now you plan to see that will continue to bloom. I love that.

Hillary: 27:37

I love that so much. This was so such a great conversation. I am so grateful that you both could take the time out of your important work to sit down with me today and thank you for listening or watching to Wedgwood's Coffee Break conversation podcast. You can help us get these important mental health chats in front of more people by rating and reviewing the show, give us five stars and a quick comment on why you listen on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube. It makes a big difference, and you can also check out wedgwood.org/podcast for fun ways you can support Wedgwood and the show. Stay hopeful, stay helpful, and let's have another coffee break soon. You.